quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by Jose Antonio:
Mick, the commandments say......do not kill
and thats what I based my answer on, that God has said, thou shalt not kill, and I believe that if you kill someone or youself, you are in sin and will not be taken into heaven with sin on your soul. Comments......

Jose, I agree with your thought, UNLESS, as you said before, you atone for your sin and are forgiven. The problem with suicide, of course, is that you do not have the opportunity to atone. Suicide is murder in the eyes of God, without the opportunity to atone.

In any case, it is the GRACE OF GOD that opens up the opportunity for us to be forgiven. We are most unworthy to receive that forgiveness, and there is NOTHING that we can do on our own to deserve that forgiveness.

MERCY: The free gift of God.

Thoughts?

Quote "suicide is murder in the eyes of God without the opportunity to atone"

Steve, if you throw mental illness into the mix, then there is no sin...hence God's mercy.

It isn't god taking lives in war, it's soldiers who do the killing. Is the faith that there is a merciful god who will forgive sins any different from the faith that there will be 72 virgins waiting in heaven for those who kill the infidels? Those who believe the latter are no less fervent than those who believe the former.

quote:

Originally posted by Mike McWatt:

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by Jose Antonio:
Mick, the commandments say......do not kill
and thats what I based my answer on, that God has said, thou shalt not kill, and I believe that if you kill someone or youself, you are in sin and will not be taken into heaven with sin on your soul. Comments......

Jose, I agree with your thought, UNLESS, as you said before, you atone for your sin and are forgiven. The problem with suicide, of course, is that you do not have the opportunity to atone. Suicide is murder in the eyes of God, without the opportunity to atone.

In any case, it is the GRACE OF GOD that opens up the opportunity for us to be forgiven. We are most unworthy to receive that forgiveness, and there is NOTHING that we can do on our own to deserve that forgiveness.

MERCY: The free gift of God.

Thoughts?

Quote "suicide is murder in the eyes of God without the opportunity to atone"

Steve, if you throw mental illness into the mix, then there is no sin...hence God's mercy.

Mike,

I would like to believe that, particularly in light of the fact that I have devoted a large part of my life to work with people with a Dual Diagnosis...mental illness and chemical dependency. Does God require a penitent heart, regardless of ones mental capacity? Does God see an individual with serious mental illness with the innocence of a child, i.e., free of intentional sin due to the inability to control oneself? If one DOES suffer from a mental incapacity, is he/she automatically "forgiven", or is a penitent heart STILL required?

Where we draw the line between the ability to recognize one's sin and the inability to do so? One could argue that a person who commits murder, by definition, is exhibiting mental illness, and is therefore not responsible for his/her actions.

How do you feel about this issue?

quote:

How do you feel about this issue?

Well, this is how I feel: if you commit suicide, you are not in your 'right' mind, if you commit murder and it is in self defense or in a war and you have a heart and a conscience, then it will tear you apart, hence I think God will forgive you. If you are just evil, I think there is no forgiveness, as in people who are responsible for mass murders. That's what I think.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL

The above is a command from the Old Dispensation; The NEW Dispensation takes into account the fallability of man, thus, a penitent heart can be forgiven, (if it is TRULY penitent).

My understanding of the New Testament and the teachings of Jesus is that ANY person can be forgiven, IF he truly recognizes his sin, asks for forgiveness, and repents.

The act of forgiveness comes about through the Grace of God, and can not be earned by any man, as we are not worthy of forgiveness.

It is a free gift from God.

Who gave anyone the right to change the word of God in the Old Testament.

The Holy Scriptures that I have say that Liberals and other subversives are doomed to Hell while Republicans, Conservatives and other real tax paying Americans are ushered into Heaven...

quote:

Originally posted by HerbM:
Who gave anyone the right to change the word of God in the Old Testament.

Herb,

According to the New Testament, God did.

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by HerbM:
Who gave anyone the right to change the word of God in the Old Testament.

Herb,

According to the New Testament, God did.

That might be acceptable for the Christians; unfortunately however, for Jews that is unacceptable...

And those who believe in none of the above sit back and laugh at the peeing contest of my bible is holier than your bible.

quote:

And those who believe in none of the above sit back and laugh at the peeing contest of my bible is holier than your bible.

If I were you, I'd go and look in the mirror, kiss it and exalt the image in it, that should make you feel a lot better. You are a brutal being.

quote:

Originally posted by A.P. Koros:
And those who believe in none of the above sit back and laugh at the peeing contest of my bible is holier than your bible.

I think it disgusting that you intentionally post things to try to encourage people to start bickering. I have no reason to argue my beliefs, and I respect Herbs and Mankinds beliefs as well. For you to come here and say "sit back and watch the pis sing contest" is detestable.

You have been trying to push buttons for a while, Stu, and I will not fall into that trap. I hope that Herb and Mankind understand that I have my opinion, and at the same time, respect theirs.

No need to try to cause trouble as you are (again) Stu.

quote:

Reply

MK and Herb,

I understand and respect each of your opinions. We will not resolve this issue overnight, but I will say that each of us has our opinion, and if we can just be in the place where we can agree to disagree as adults, if necessary, that will be fine. What we DON'T need is posters intentionally trying to stir up trouble, as I see we have among us right now.

Hummer, thank you for seeing that negative post for what it is. I appreciated that.

quote:

Hummer, thank you for seeing that negative post for what it is. I appreciated that.

What? Do you think I'm stupid, I only pretend to be, but not when it comes to atheists.

Atheists, or those who intentionally go out of their way to agitate others, and make a joke of it.

Thank you again. Really.

You can't get to heaven on roller skates.

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:
Atheists, or those who intentionally go out of their way to agitate others, and make a joke of it.

Thank you again. Really.

Luckily for this country, atheists are a very small percentage of people. They just make a lot of noise.

quote:

Originally posted by A.P. Koros:
And those who believe in none of the above sit back and laugh at the peeing contest of my bible is holier than your bible.

I respect your right to profess to be an atheist. Please do not mock my religious beliefs.

Mile, I am not mocking your religious beliefs and I apologize if I've offended you. This site is a kind of laboratory for me for something I'm working on. In broad terms, I'm trying to determine how tolerant people who profess to be religious really are. I admire you as a tolerant but committed person. The sanctimony and intolerance of others is unfortunately more typical of reactions I've gotten in several places.