This story describes the conviction of a schoolchild who refuses to recite the Pledge of Allegiance because he beleves that "With Liberty and Justice For All" is not applied to all Americans equally.

His point is NOT specifically related to gay rights, rather, to the Constitutional right that ALL Americans, regardless of sexual preference have constitutionally-guarded rights.

Read the article, and tell us how you feel about his point. Remember, he is defending HIS constitutional right NOT to say the pledge, not defending gay rights, rather, opposing the arbitrary practice of only certain people having full rights as Americans:


Student Braves Controversy, Refuses to Recite Pledge
by Tom Henderson 13th 2009 3:29PM

Liberty and justice for all?"

Will Phillips doesn't believe that describes America for its gay and lesbian citizens. He's a 10-year-old at West Fork Elementary School in Arkansas, about three hours east of Oklahoma City. Given his beliefs, he refused to recite the Pledge of Allegiance, specifically because that one phrase, "liberty and justice for all," he says, does not truly apply to all.

That did not go over well with the substitute teacher in his fifth-grade classroom.

The Arkansas Times reports that he started refusing to say the pledge Mon., Oct. 5. By Thursday, the substitute was steamed. She told Will she knew his mother and grandmother and they would want him to recite the pledge.

Will told the Times the substitute got more and more upset. She raised her voice. By this point, Will told the newspaper, he started losing his cool too, adding: "After a few minutes, I said, 'With all due respect ma'am, go jump off a bridge.'"

That got him sent to the principal's office. The principal made him look up information about the flag and what it represents. Meanwhile, there was the inevitable call to his mother.

At first, mom Laura Phillips told the Times, the principal talked about Will telling a substitute to jump off a bridge. When pressed, the principal admitted the whole incident was sparked by the boy exercising his constitutional right not to recite the Pledge of Allegiance.

Phillips suggested an apology was in order -- from the teacher. When the principal said that wasn't necessary, Will's mother started venting to friends via Twitter. Those friends, in turn, told the news media. And what would have been a minor classroom incident has people throughout Arkansas and beyond choosing sides.

As for Will, he continues to exercise his right to remain silent. It can be rough at times, he and his family admit. He has his share of supporters, however, his critics are louder and nastier -- especially because he took his stand to defend gay rights.

"In the lunchroom and in the hallway, they've been making comments and doing pranks, calling me gay," he told the Times. "It's always the same people, walking up and calling me a gaywad."

Nonetheless, Will told the paper, he is sticking to his convictions. A reporter for the paper asked Will -- with all this talk about patriotism and the pledge -- what he thinks it means to be an American.

"Freedom of speech," he responded. "The freedom to disagree. That's what I think pretty much being an American represents."

His mother is proud.

"He's probably more aware of the meaning of the pledge that a lot of adults," Phillips told the Times.

I support the young boy who doesn't want to say the Pledge for whatever reason.

They don't have to say it, just stand out of respect.

quote:

Originally posted by Inarsword:
They don't have to say it, just stand out of respect.

INAR, I assume that you understand the boys main premise......"Why should I stand in respect if the country doesn't show respect for certain segments of our society...?

Isn't that logical thinking for such a small child?

Can you relate to such a young child's insight into such a complicated issue?

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by Inarsword:
They don't have to say it, just stand out of respect.

INAR, I assume that you understand the boys main premise......"Why should I stand in respect if the country doesn't show respect for certain segments of our society...?

Isn't that logical thinking for such a small child?

Can you relate to such a young child's insight into such a complicated issue?

the kid HEARS his parents talking around the dinner table..very simple...and where does our country HATE gays??? i don't see it

Tell that to Matthew Shepherd's parents.

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by Inarsword:
They don't have to say it, just stand out of respect.

INAR, I assume that you understand the boys main premise......"Why should I stand in respect if the country doesn't show respect for certain segments of our society...?

Isn't that logical thinking for such a small child?

Can you relate to such a young child's insight into such a complicated issue?

I certainly can relate. The point is to expand the conceptual thinking of the child to understand that while you disagree with certain aspects, respect should, nevertheless, be shown. I encounter this at least two times a week and I explain the concept. I am never refused based on the reasoning.

quote:

Originally posted by scooby doo:

quote:

Originally posted by mickeymantle:

quote:

Originally posted by Inarsword:
They don't have to say it, just stand out of respect.

INAR, I assume that you understand the boys main premise......"Why should I stand in respect if the country doesn't show respect for certain segments of our society...?

Isn't that logical thinking for such a small child?

Can you relate to such a young child's insight into such a complicated issue?

the kid HEARS his parents talking around the dinner table..very simple...and where does our country HATE gays??? i don't see it

Where was the word "HATE" even mentioned in my post?

It wasn't.

The boy's reaction was to the lack of respect and rights afforded to certain segments of our society.

I don't say the Pledge. I do stand in respect for those around me are saying the Pledge. I do not say anything. I do not Pledge to a piece of cloth. God said, only pray to him not to idols.

I will say a Pledge to my country when it is in trouble or needs defense, but not to a piece of cloth. I will not pledge for things I believe the country is doing things wrong.

Every foreigner has to say the Pledge when they become citizens. All criminals and traitors have said the Pledge during their life. The Pledge really means nothing. People will support or not support the country even if there is no Pledge of Allegiance.

I know the flag represents the U.S. but that does no mean I have to pledge allegiance to the cloth. I do not have to swear or pledge over a bible. I will sign a document saying that I am loyal to the U.S.

I know I am a minority, but that is my position.

quote:

Originally posted by HerbM:
I don't say the Pledge. I do stand in respect for those around me are saying the Pledge. I do not say anything. I do not Pledge to a piece of cloth. God said, only pray to him not to idols.

I will say a Pledge to my country when it is in trouble or needs defense, but not to a piece of cloth. I will not pledge for things I believe the country is doing things wrong.

Every foreigner has to say the Pledge when they become citizens. All criminals and traitors have said the Pledge during their life. The Pledge really means nothing. People will support or not support the country even if there is no Pledge of Allegiance.

I know the flag represents the U.S. but that does no mean I have to pledge allegiance to the cloth. I do not have to swear or pledge over a bible. I will sign a document saying that I am loyal to the U.S.

I know I am a minority, but that is my position.

Herb, the Pledge of Allegiance is not a prayer nor is the American Flag an idol. All Shuls have an American flag and an Israely flag, providing they have bought one. I'm Chabad and my Shul has both. And, what say you about our National Anthem, do you stand and cover for the Anthem??? Perhaps, you are just un-American, an agnostic or just a fool of an old man.

Ronee, long time no see.

For the National AZnthem, I take my hat off but do not try to sing. I am tone deaf.

People get carried away. When God Bless America is played or sung, people place their hands over their heart. Probably the same thing is done with America the Beautify.

I put my hand over my heart when someone says American League of American Footbal League.

The Pledge is close enough to a prayer. It even mentions God. Anyway the fllad IS JUST A PIECE OF CLOTH AND THE OLEDGE MEANS NOTHING.

I have no problem taking a pledge for a real person or for a job.

No whaere in the Bible does it say that we should say a Pledge to a flag.

I do not know why yoiur shul has an Israeli ***. It is not part of the U.S.

If you want me to say a pledge to help you out of your problems, I will do it.

I am not Un-American, agnostic , but maybe a fool for sticking with this Board.

Hey Herb,
I think I know where your head is on this subject....

This message has been edited. Last edited by: TonyMaz,

Tony, someone uo there likes me because your photo did not show.

quote:

His point is NOT specifically related to gay rights, rather, to the Constitutional right that ALL Americans, regardless of sexual preference have constitutionally-guarded rights.

Sounds like gay rights has everything to do with it. Why would a 10 year old boy take this up as a cause. Somethings missing in this story.

quote:

Originally posted by TonyMaz:
Hey Herb,
I think I know where your head is on this subject....

If Herb was in Iran, he could be one of the people being convicted for their speech and dissent, but he is not, he is in the good old USA, where anyone can say or disagree vocally about our governments shortfalls.
After listening to Herb for a ayear, I have learned not to take him to seriously. He is just against everything everyone else is for.

quote:

Originally posted by miket:

quote:

His point is NOT specifically related to gay rights, rather, to the Constitutional right that ALL Americans, regardless of sexual preference have constitutionally-guarded rights.

Sounds like gay rights has everything to do with it. Why would a 10 year old boy take this up as a cause. Somethings missing in this story.

It doesnt really matter WHAT the cause is....his POINT is that some people do not have the same rights as others, although ALL Americans have constitutionally-guarded rights.

SO, being homosexual, a female in certain cases, over a certain age, a certain religion, originating from a certain country, or a racial minority can result in your rights being deprived.

Isn't that the point we can ALL take from this?

Other than not being able to wed in most states, they have the same freedom of speech and able to disagree as you and I.
This was not an issue years ago, but now it is shoved in your face. they want to change laws, which I agree, a lot are archaic.

Herb is a useful idiot, just what this country's enemies love. He would be the first one they would behead, if he has a head that is. He is a fool with no respect for anything. He has grandchildren, I hope they stay away from him when they are old enough to understand that he is a jerk.

quote:

Originally posted by Hummingbird:
Herb is a useful idiot, just what this country's enemies love. He would be the first one they would behead, if he has a head that is. He is a fool with no respect for anything. He has grandchildren, I hope they stay away from him when they are old enough to understand that he is a jerk.

He keeps his head tucked away in a safe place, if you get my drift.

Stated by Herb: I have no problem taking a pledge for a real person or for a job.

Its funny that you would only say the pledge to someones face or to get a job.Isn't that a laugh.I wonder what would happen if you didn't say it for a new employer?Do you think that he might tell you to take a walk?
It's funny how you have these views now that you are retired from the government.